DOY began his replies with a rejection of my take on Yeshua’s comments to the thief on the cross stating I tell you today (comma), you shall be with me in paradise, by citing a baseless speculative argument that referencing the time of his speech is unnecessary to which I will reply:
The overwhelming problem for you is that Yeshua did not ascend into heaven this day. That would negate the entire gospel. He would do that after his Resurrection. And according to Calvin, not only did he not ascend into heaven he descended into a subterranean chamber to preach to fallen angels which makes no sense whatsoever. You have been duped sir face it!
Luke 18:33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
Luke 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: I see nothing about him ascending to heaven on the day he died.
Where is the scripture that states on the day of his death his soul ascended into paradise? The Neoplatonists will no doubt refer to Abraham’s bosom which I have already refuted seeing the rich man has a tongue! Moreover 1 Peter 3:19-20 describes the objects of Yeshua’s preaching as being in prison and disobedient. How can this refer to saints in Abraham’s Bosom?
“I feel like I can see in your eyes you know that your explanations are weak.”
>>>If that makes you feel better you go right ahead and tell yourself that.
“They are from the top of your head and not well thought out.”
>>>Assertions are not arguments.
“There is no way to be away from your own body at any time in your view. To say that being away from your body is to be present with God and Christ in the Kingdom is stupid.”
>>>And yet Paul tells us that the mortal is done away and the immortal put on in the resurrection. 1 Cor 15.
“Because in your view you ARE your body, completely.”
“You can’t be you, your consciousness and dwell outside of your body.”
>>>You are confusing a necessary and a sufficient condition.
“You are not away from your body when you are dead, neither are you away from your body in the resurrection in your view.”
>>>Right because Paul describes us putting off mortality and putting on immortality. 2 Cor. 5:4, 1 Cor. 15:53.
“You are not at any time away from your body in your view. It is impossible. And your other argument about being away from your body meaning your are staying away from the things of this world and all that is not convincing at all.”
>>>And yet you completely avoided the main reason I gave this view because 2 Cor. 5: 6 states Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. The impossible problem for you is that Yah’s Spirit is omnipresent and Messiah is within us: Rom. 8:10. So how can you say this passage is spatial? You knew this was impossible for you and you deliberately avoided it didn’t you?
“but we are waiting to be further clothed upon with an immortal body in the heavens so that we will not be found naked. It is clear that it is speaking about a human body, not the Body of Messiah.”
“And so then you have to ask: Why call our body a tabernacle or house we are dwelling in?”
>>>Because our bodies are not a sufficient condition for our being. There is also the mind, the will and the spirit/the breath of life.
“Clearly if we do not have a spirit aspect to our nature”
>>>I never said we do not have a spirit aspect to our nature. No wonder you reject my view! If I thought my view was what you thought I’d reject it too. The spirit is not the soul. That is what you are missing. The spirit is the breath of life.
“then we are not a conscious spirit living inside a body as if it were a tabernacle or house, or as if we were clothed with a flesh suit.”
>>>Yeah, that’s stupid isn’t it and I reject anyone who affirms such a thing and the fact I spoke to this issue numerous times in this video convinces me more I’m right.
“This language makes no sense in your view. Yet this is the language God’s teachers of Israel and the Nations used. Like look at what Peter says: 2Pe 1:13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 2Pe 1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 2Pe 1:15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.
Peter is talking about his decease, his death. Why would he equate being alive with being in a tabernacle”
>>>Because the human being has faculties other than the body, namely, the mind, the will, and the breath of life.
“and dying with putting it off?”
>>>Because at death the breath of life leaves and returns to the father of spirits. Ecc 12:7. That word in Ecc 12:7 is not the soul, nephesh. It is the breath of life.
“This sounds exactly like what you would say if you know you have a conscious spirit”
>>>No, no. I am a physical human being, with a genetic language program in my dna, that is powered and made alive by the breath of life.
“and that when you die it will leave your body/tabernacle and go reside elsewhere.”
>>>You are still confusing the breath of life with the soul.
“But it makes no sense in your view because in your view you are the tabernacle.”
>>>That is a necessary and sufficient conflation.
Knowledge of scripture is good, but you also need to learn about language and reasoning.
The body is necessary to my living being, but not sufficient.
“You can’t put off something you are. You can’t be in something you are. You seriously need to think this stuff through more.”
>>>I have shown you that not only have I thought through this more than you, even when I have directly addressed your concerns you have either obstinately ignored it, and at other times with reference to the breath of life, been completely intellectually incapable of grasping the basic distinction I am making between the soul and the breath of life.
“I’m pretty sure there is not any sufficient convincing answer for an unbiased person to these things. I have looked into this issue a lot because for a long time”
>>>Yeah and I’m just an incompetent heretic that just doesn’t get it right?
“I didn’t know for sure what to believe and studied this like crazy, and I never heard anyone give a sufficient response to these things.”
>>>Seeing your responses I bet you have, but you just do not have the intellectual capacity to grasp it. That’s why I don’t believe in the enlightenment and democracy. We’re not all equal, we are not all meant to be teachers and we are not all meant to understand everything.
2 Cor. 12:1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Here Paul is not speaking about being physically out of his body as a soul, but in the vision. My take on this passage is given by John Gill and btw, I accepted this view before I ever read John Gill on this passage:
“whether his soul remained in his body, and he was caught up soul and body into heaven, as Elijah was carried thither soul and body in a chariot with horses of fire; or whether his soul was out of his body, and he was disembodied for a time, as Philo the Jew F11 says that Moses was (aswmaton) , “without the body”, during his stay of forty days and as many nights in the mount; or whether this was not all in a visionary way, as John was “in the Spirit” on the Lord’s day, and Ezekiel was taken by a lock of his head, and lifted up by the Spirit between earth and heaven, and brought “in the visions of God to Jerusalem”, cannot be said. The apostle did not know himself, and much less can any other be able to say how it was; it is best with him to refer and leave it to the omniscient God; one of the four persons the Jews say entered into paradise, who are hereafter mentioned in (See Gill on 2 Corinthians 12:4), is said to have his mind snatched away in a divine rapture F12; that is, he was not himself, he knew not where he was, or whether in the body or out, as says the apostle.”
As for Moses and Elijah appearing in Matthew 17 we do not read that their souls appeared and seeing Elijah never died but was taken to the Heavenly Sanctuary , per 2 Kings 2, the disembodied soul interpretation is not only unnecessary but baseless.