Calling out Eric Jon Phelps and Co. Debate Challenge

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20 thoughts on “Calling out Eric Jon Phelps and Co. Debate Challenge”

  1. Matthew 7:14
    New International Version
    But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    Luke 18:8
    New International Version
    I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”

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    1. “Matthew 7:14
      New International Version
      But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

      >>>This needs to be understood in the historical context in which it was spoken when believers were few and grievously persecuted.

      “Luke 18:8
      New International Version
      I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?””

      >>>Are you seriously suggesting that the gates of hell will prevail against his Congregation? Are you suggesting he is lying in Mat. 13:

      31 He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the [r]air come and nest in its branches.”

      33 He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three [s]pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”

      Yeshua in Luke 18 is giving us a prod to exhort us to faith and good works. Otherwise you are calling him a liar.

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      1. “This needs to be understood in the historical context in which it was spoken when believers were few and grievously persecuted.”

        When did true believers stop being few and no longer grievously persecuted for you?

        For most of history true believers almost everywhere suffered the worst persecution. Only until recently did this end and even today it still happens in many countries and look what you have gone through.

        Where has there ever been a broad group of true believers holding to the true faith or at least almost completely to it at least? How hard is it to understand the Bible’s pure Messianic faith? Did not the Great Falling Away start early on in the history of the Congregation? Was it not a GREAT falling away?

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      2. “Are you seriously suggesting that the gates of hell will prevail against his Congregation?”

        What does it mean for the Gates of the Grave to prevail against Yeshua’s Congregation? I am aware that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church have their spin on this verse too. What is the Grave? Does not the Grave have to do with literal death? And did it not appear to the carnally minded world that the Grave prevailed over Yeshua and that his mission was a failure, but then he rose through the Power of God and sat at his right hand as King?

        To this day you still see how the vast majority of the world is sinful and doesn’t have any care for the Truth regardless how much information and evidence there is out there for and about God. Looks to me like God is giving men over to a working delusion that they should believe a lie because they take pleasure in unrighteousness even in the face of the love of the truth to me.

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      3. “Are you suggesting he is lying in Mat. 13:

        31 He presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the [r]air come and nest in its branches.”

        33 He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three [s]pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”

        Yeshua in Luke 18 is giving us a prod to exhort us to faith and good works. Otherwise you are calling him a liar.”

        Could this be speaking of the time before the Great Falling Away?

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      4. A Messianic Nazarene Israelite guy is telling me that Constantine was the liberation of the true Faith and ended their persecution! Ha ha ha! Wow, that really is an odd mixture! I beg your pardon but that is a good one, man! You got any more good jokes?!

        Read the citations here concerning Constantine and that general time period: http://www.cogwriter.com/persecutions.htm I would think you should already know about all of these things though. You can’t at the same time hold to the Nazarene Faith and also believe this nonsense about Constantine.

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      5. “A Messianic Nazarene Israelite guy is telling me that Constantine was the liberation of the true Faith and ended their persecution! Ha ha ha! Wow, that really is an odd mixture! I beg your pardon but that is a good one, man! You got any more good jokes?!”

        >>>You are confusing me with an Ebionite. I clearly cited Edwards for a precedent which you completely avoided.

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      6. No, I’m challenging your view of the “gates of the Grave” which is close to the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox view it seems.

        The Grave, the collective Grave of mankind, has to do with physical death. The Grave does not prevail against those in the true Assembly of Messiah because he has redeemed them from death and they inherit the resurrection. This was not so with the Old Covenant congregation because they did not have the promise of everlasting life which the New Covenant with its better promises has. Notice, I’m giving you an interpretation from CONTEXT not some PRIVATE INTERPRETATION from Rome.

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      7. “No, I’m challenging your view of the “gates of the Grave” which is close to the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox view it seems.”

        >>>You are completely ignorant. When I was in seminary I wrote an 800 page systematic theology. I wrote on page 628:

        “I agree with Rutherford when he says that the passage referring to the Church’s preservation from the gates of hell in Mat 16:18 refers to the invisible Church (Due Right of Presbyteries,
        pg.15).

        The Protestant view was that this passage refers to true believers not to the visible church.

        “This was not so with the Old Covenant congregation because they did not have the promise of everlasting life”

        >>>That has nothing to do with this passage. Notice how the doctrine develops:

        18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

        19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

        The context is the authority of the congregation and its administration. Not the Resurrection of the dead.

        ” Notice, I’m giving you an interpretation from CONTEXT not some PRIVATE INTERPRETATION from Rome.”

        >>>BS! You are not showing anything from the context that demands this interpretation. The threat of annihilation is not Peter’s existence as a human being, but his spiritual mission. That is being protected. That is why the keys of the kingdom are mentioned. You should be ashamed of yourself how dishonest and manipulative you are being with me and with your own mind. SHAME!

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      8. All those parables in Matthew 13 are saying is that the Kingdom of God starts off small but eventually grows tot he point that it prevails over everything. You are assuming your position on the text. I see Messiah’s Great Commission as building his Army till the the very last part of the Last Days when he gathers them to himself to return to the Earth with them to finally conquer the kingdoms of this world physically and openly with the Kingdom he has built. The Last Trump is the Resurrection of the Just. Paul clearly taught this and the Last Trump is the Seventh Trump in Revelation 11 which tells us that it is at this time that the Kingdoms of the Earth become those of YHVH and his Messiah, physically that is. Obviously God has ALWAYS been king with his Son at his right hand as co-heir even before the incarnation. There are plenty of places in the OT that says YHVH is the king over all the earth and that he is the governor of the nations. Yet certainly this is before the Gospel of Messiah coming as it is now and God certainly was allowing the nations to go their own way. Most of the time since the Resurrection has been the Great Tribulation. Your view actually denies what we actually observe in the world and have observed for a long time. It is no surprise that most Nazarenes do not and probably will continue to not hold to your view of Postmillennialism, as we know what we have gone through throughout history. Yet it is these apostate protestants, many of whom are aligning themselves more and more with Rome again in the NWO New Age Integration cult who love to hold to your view. Like all these Trump supporters who think finally through Trump we have a chance to take this world for Christ, All these Postmill Christian guys will probably be in the restored Roman Empire and think that their hope has finally been fulfilled. That’s what it looks like very much.

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      9. “All those parables in Matthew 13 are saying is that the Kingdom of God starts off small but eventually grows tot he point that it prevails over everything. ”

        >>>Which is not what dispy Pre-Mil theology teaches. The kingdom is not now growing gradually. It is not even here and won’t be here until the second coming. Then by definition yeshua is not the Messiah. The Messiah is by definition the anointed King. So if he won’t be a king until the future then by definition he is not the messiah until the future. You have to deny the New Testament and if you’re consistent you’ll end up a Muslim.

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      10. “Obviously God has ALWAYS been king with his Son at his right hand as co-heir even before the incarnation. ”

        >>>And yet the scripture says Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ– this Jesus whom you crucified.”

        Not that he always was Lord, but that Elohim made him such.

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      11. Okay good. So the Messiah would preserve his Congregation and not even the grave could kill it and that is not according to the Catholic outward institutional perfection according to a secular mind. How does that necessitate your view of that? Remember during the 1260 years papal rule the Congregation was in the Wilderness ostracized from society and severely persecuted (Rev. 12; Dan. 7). Many would say that is a failed congregation. However, just like how the Messiah seemed to failed in his mission to the carnal earthly minded, so also it is here. The Messiah promised that his people would have to suffer much to enter his Kingdom. That they would have to go through refining fires to inherit the blessing.

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      12. “Okay good. So the Messiah would preserve his Congregation and not even the grave could kill it ”

        >>>Wrong. I already spoke to this. The context here is their spiritual mission not their physical existence.

        “and that is not according to the Catholic outward institutional perfection according to a secular mind”

        >>>What are you talking about? Total word pasta.

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      13. I don’t give a damn what Darby teaches. And I don’t care if you call me an Ebionite or a Muslim. The reason believers were called ‘Christian’ at first was as an insult but they owned it and rejoiced in their enemies hating them. So thank you for the Red Herring and Guilt by Association fallacies.

        Millennialism was around long before the Dispensationalists were. And historically it was not exclusively held to by Ebionites, and they certainty would have been against a reinstitution of Levitical Sacrifices because they hated them and believed they were a corruption of the Law by the “lying pen of the scribes” – which belief of theirs I reject. It was held to even by people who were not even believers in the Torah like we are, though this was a horrible inconsistency and I would have loved to debate with men like Irenaeus and Justin on this issue. If they wanted to remain in their opinion of the Law in consistency, they should run to the opposite side and be Amillennialists after I was done with them.

        As for the Muslim thing goes. That is laughable. Not even worthy of a response.

        Sorry but I’m not going to let you put me in a box that I’m not in. “But Mr. Shelton, Protestants don’t believe in observing the Torah and basically all Calvinists are Van Tillians, so if you want to be consistent, be an Arminian Hebrew Roots Millennialist.”

        Every time someone believes the Kingdom is built a little bigger. Another stone added to the Temple.

        “YHVH shall come and all his set-apart ones with him.” (Zechariah 14; Revelation 19)

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      14. “I don’t give a damn what Darby teaches. And I don’t care if you call me an Ebionite or a Muslim.”

        >>>Even if it’s true?

        “The reason believers were called ‘Christian’ at first was as an insult but they owned it and rejoiced in their enemies hating them. So thank you for the Red Herring and Guilt by Association fallacies.”

        >>>There was no guilt by association. There was guilt by identification. If you believe the kingdom doesn’t come until the future you are an Ebionite. Period!

        “Millennialism was around long before the Dispensationalists were.”

        >>>This isn’t about Millennialism. It is about the nature of the Kingdom.

        “As for the Muslim thing goes. That is laughable. Not even worthy of a response.”

        >>>The Muslims came from the Ebionites. I documented this in my book 166 Theses.

        “Sorry but I’m not going to let you put me in a box that I’m not in. “But Mr. Shelton, Protestants don’t believe in observing the Torah and basically all Calvinists are Van Tillians, so if you want to be consistent, be an Arminian Hebrew Roots Millennialist.”

        >>>What the hell was that?

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  2. Glad to see someone besides me challenging Eric on Dispensationalism, trinity, floaty place and biblical economics. I taught Eric the flat earth and won him over quickly on that, among a few other things. I taught him a lot and he taught me a lot. However, he is not cooperative on the “Baptist” issues, even though I boxed him in on Schofieldism. He is the only Calvinist I know who is also Dispensationalist. As you and I talked about in private meetings, his allegiance to his Baptist mentor (s) overrides truth. He refuses to listen to facts and reason, especially on eschatology, which is crippling his few listeners and alienating any would be supporters like me. I hope Omar sees the hypocrisy. Omar’s s good man. I like him, but his allegiance to Eric may blind him to the critical issues you have correctly identified. Eric is otherwise a very fine man dedicated to Yeshua. Glad to see you taking charge of your finances. It is a difficult predicament. Control your anger and channel it properly and you should be okay in the final analysis. Self employment is the best route, but difficult. If you need help, let me know. You’ve done a spectacular job in your research. It is the foundation of my ministry.

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